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KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF) (Read 16717 times)
Bob
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KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF)
10/17/15 at 03:45:26
 
Has anyone got a sim of this one yet? I would think that for those dips, we would need to look at Trojans, and a hell of a lot of them.
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Tony
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Re: KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF)
Reply #1 - 10/17/15 at 12:13:40
 
Quote from Bob on 10/17/15 at 03:45:26:
Has anyone got a sim of this one yet? I would think that for those dips, we would need to look at Trojans, and a hell of a lot of them.

I was thinking the same thing.  The dips in the light curve are not symmetrical like you would expect for a round planet.  And a planet would have to be have to be star-size to create the observed dips.  That can't happen.
 
A swarm of objects might do the trick.  The problem is that swarms tend to spread out.  Perhaps Trojan is the solution to that problem.  But a trojan swarm should produce periodicity.  Stuff that orbits, including trojan swarms, has an orbital period.  The dips in the light curve don't do so periodically like you would expect.  Even if the people suggesting "alien" are correct, solar panels around a Dyson sphere should have orbital periods and a periodic dimming would be expected.
 
Perhaps if the trojan swarm had a high inclination with respect to their parent object, their longitude of ascending node might be shifting so quickly that their plane moves into and out of the plane required to observe them from Earth.  I'll try to set up a simulation of this later.  If you can think of any other reason a swarm of orbiting objects would not show periodicity, let me know and we'll try that too!
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Bob
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Re: KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF)
Reply #2 - 10/17/15 at 23:59:19
 
Hi Tony,
 
We do seem to have a dip at about 780 days and another at about twice that. Frankly I don't like the idea of some sort of cometary shooting match at about Mars' orbit. That might sole the infra red problem but the odds of our just happening to see it are very small. Now, someone on facebook posted an animated gif of Trojans that looked like a Wankel Engine. Greeks leading, Trojans lagging but with a third smaller group (Myrmidons?) at the mid point. The gif was looking straight down on the Trojans but we know that in 3d it's going to be more complicated. Some Greeks are defecting to the Trojan camp, and some Trojans are defecting to the Myrmidons, then Myrmidons to the Greeks.
 
If the whole thing precesses, and we have a mixed bag of albedos, then that may account for the star's variations.
 
Then of course we don't know a great deal about that nearby dwarf star, other than it's "now" at about 800 a.u. First thin though is to see if we can construct a solar system with large numbers of Trojans at around Mars' orbit that have remained fairly stable for a few billion years.      
 
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Bob
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Re: KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF)
Reply #3 - 10/18/15 at 00:17:38
 
As a little aside, someone was talking; about a fortnight ago, in a facebook group; about an old Nasa plan, to place three satellites at the Earth's Trojan points. The object b being, to try and detect gravitational waves. Because of budget cuts the project was given to ESA. Costs had gone up because of the discovery of an Earth leading Trojan.
 
That's a sobering thought, if this project is our start on a minuscule Dyson structure, and we have the remotest possibility of someone, "only" 1500 light years away, in the process of building a "Ring World", then the buggers know that the Earth is here. They may well have listened to us but sadly the Synod of Whitby, didn't broadcast in vhf  Smiley That distance fits with the Drake equation, and would mean that these guys are going to be about sixteen thousand years ahead of us.  
 
I'm working on making a huge white flag  cry  Sad
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Re: KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF)
Reply #4 - 10/18/15 at 00:23:38
 
Quote from Bob on 10/17/15 at 23:59:19:
Now, someone on facebook posted an animated gif of Trojans that looked like a Wankel Engine. Greeks leading, Trojans lagging but with a third smaller group (Myrmidons?) at the mid point. The gif was looking straight down on the Trojans but we know that in 3d it's going to be more complicated. Some Greeks are defecting to the Trojan camp, and some Trojans are defecting to the Myrmidons, then Myrmidons to the Greeks.

At the midpoint sits the planet.  So this wouldn't work.  Trojans can't simply trade camp.  I'd love to see the gif.  Do you have a link to the facebook page?
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Bob
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Re: KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF)
Reply #5 - 10/18/15 at 01:31:56
 
Try this, you have to scroll way down the thread to find it. The talk about was about Hilda objects.
 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/telescopeaddicts/
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Re: KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF)
Reply #6 - 10/18/15 at 01:43:39
 
Trojans pure sang indeed do not change camp , lets say by "definition" . But coorbitals can .
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Bob
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Re: KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF)
Reply #7 - 10/18/15 at 01:57:33
 
Scroll  down to see this post  
 
 
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hildas.jpeg
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frankuitaalst
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Re: KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF)
Reply #8 - 10/18/15 at 04:29:59
 
Here in this forum there is some info about the dynamics of the Hilda family .  
http://www.orbitsimulator.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1363161503/2#2
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Re: KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF)
Reply #9 - 10/18/15 at 06:56:33
 
Hi Bob ,  
Searching for this star I see a lot of blablabla articles about alien megastructures , but it's hard to find the actual data.  
Can you post a valid source showing the data ?
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Bob
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Re: KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF)
Reply #10 - 10/18/15 at 09:54:30
 
The wiki page gives basic data
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIC_8462852
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Re: KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF)
Reply #11 - 10/18/15 at 10:11:23
 
Quote from frankuitaalst on 10/18/15 at 06:56:33:
Hi Bob ,
Searching for this star I see a lot of blablabla articles about alien megastructures , but it's hard to find the actual data.
Can you post a valid source showing the data ?  

 
Hi Frankuitaalst,
 
This is the article about the discovery, currently the most reliable and complete source:
 
- http://arxiv.org/pdf/1509.03622v1.pdf
 
 
 
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The diversity of the phenomena of nature is so great,and the treasures hidden in the heavens so rich,precisely in order that the human mind shall never be lacking in fresh nourishment.
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Re: KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF)
Reply #12 - 10/18/15 at 10:51:15
 
Thanks for the link to the paper . First link seems to be the good one !
As far as I read the light curves don't fit with a periodic  planetary system orbiting the star , at least not in a transiting orbit.  
Orbiting debris chunks may perhaps be an explanation , but I don't understand how a debris system can create such large dips (20% ) down .
I first thought about a Kuiper belt object (our KB ) transiting the star by accident , for the first big dip  , but I guess this should create a much shorter signature ...  
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Re: KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF)
Reply #13 - 10/18/15 at 12:31:41
 
I just made 2 Hildas simulations.  They're at the bottom of the Simulations page: http://orbitsimulator.com/gravitySimulatorCloud/simulations/
 
They're the same simulation but from different vantage points.
 
The first is a typical top-down view showing 400 Hildas orbiting the Sun in a rotating frame that holds Jupiter stationary.
 
In the 2nd simulation, the rotating frame is turned off and the vantage is changed to a distant observer in the plane of the Hildas.  You can see the 3 "camps" causing dips in the light curve followed by the thin areas.
Unlike the WTF star, these dips are still periodic.
 
Here's a new guess.  Perhaps a binary planet orbits this star, and one of the members has a huge ring system like J1407B.  Being part of a binary might explain the lack of peroidicity.  As the barycenter of the binary orbits the star in a periodic fashion, the actual planet with the rings may or may not be in perfect alignment to cause a light dip.
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Bob
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Re: KIC 8462852[1] (unofficially called WTF)
Reply #14 - 10/19/15 at 02:37:11
 
Hi Tony,
 
From the "Where's the flux" paper, it doesn't look as though a super Saturn is involved. I haven't had a chance to digest it fully yet but they did look at the light contribution from the close by dwarf star. I would have thought that a super Saturn, with seemingly, its pole flipped towards us, so it rolls around its orbit like Uranus, would reflect a lot of WTF's light back from the rings.
 
At the moment my money is on a large diameter bunch of asteroids close in, i.e. at about 3 a.u. Rather than a smaller diameter, further out, 20 a.u. grouping.
 
Early day though.
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