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General >> Discussion >> Tony, you're on Wikipedia :-)
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Message started by kheider on 01/29/09 at 00:52:16

Title: Tony, you're on Wikipedia :-)
Post by kheider on 01/29/09 at 00:52:16

Well ok, it's GravSim that is on Wikipedia. :-)

My GravSim skills are merely functional, but I did upload an image showing "The motion of Orcus relative to a rotating frame of Neptune's average semi-major axis. Plotted from 2009 to 11775 with a time step of 1.5 days on a scale of 126 AU."  It's a start.  Any suggestions on a better way to word it?

Would it be better to say: "relative to a rotating frame of Neptune's average orbital period"?
Or should I get wordy and say: "relative to a rotating frame of Neptune's average orbital period and semi-major axis"?

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonant_trans-Neptunian_object

-- Kevin Heider

Title: Re: Tony, you're on Wikipedia :-)
Post by frankuitaalst on 01/31/09 at 13:22:38

Nice picture Kevin !
As Orcus is a Plutino with a similar orbit as Pluto itself I had the idea to represent them both in the same animation , also in rotating frame to Neptune .
Animation hereunder was run for 41 frames each having 3*164.8 years ( 3 times Neptunes orbital period) .
Pluto is in grey , Orcus in red .  
The orbits look really very similar , but seem to be in counterphase ...

Title: Re: Tony, you're on Wikipedia :-)
Post by Tony on 01/31/09 at 13:47:03

That'a really neat animation.  It also illustrates the near 2:1 resonance with Uranus.  Uranus is tracing an oval 2:1 pattern, but it does not librate, indicating it is simply a near resonance.  If you re-time your animation so Uranus doesn't jump as the animation loops, it would be even more obvious.  See my animation here http://www.orbitsimulator.com/gravity/articles/pluto.html for an example.

On the wiki page, the quote that says "The motion of Orcus relative to a rotating frame of Neptune's average semi-major axis." isn't quite accurate.  A better phrase might be:

"The motion of Orcus in a frame of reference rotating with a period equal to Neptune's orbital period."

or

"The motion of Orcus in a rotating frame of reference where Neptune is held stationary".

Title: Re: Tony, you're on Wikipedia :-)
Post by kheider on 01/31/09 at 16:50:24


frankuitaalst wrote:
Nice picture Kevin !
As Orcus is a Plutino with a similar orbit as Pluto itself I had the idea to represent them both in the same animation


Thank you Frank.

I like your animation.  I think it might be a little aggressive for the intro of a more general "Resonant trans-Neptunian object" article since

1. You have 2 bodies and the general public is not use to rotating frames.
2. Neptune is not clearly labeled when quickly viewing the thumbnails contained in an article.
3. Uranus has a funny circle. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonant_trans-Neptunian_object#Known_populations

But I thought it would be great for the lead in the Plutino article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutino

In your animation, I assume that Pluto has mass and that Orcus is massless?  That is how it is in my gsim file.

-- Kevin

Title: Re: Tony, you're on Wikipedia :-)
Post by frankuitaalst on 02/01/09 at 00:14:00

It's really great to have an editor at home  ;D
I gave Orcus it's estimated mass for this simulation ...
Thanks again .

Title: Re: Tony, you're on Wikipedia :-)
Post by kheider on 02/01/09 at 23:54:17


frankuitaalst wrote:
It's really great to have an editor at home  ;D
I gave Orcus it's estimated mass for this simulation ...
Thanks again.


I added a GravSim picture of the orbit of 2007 OR10 compared to the orbits of Eris and Pluto.  It's not much, but it is a start. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_OR10

-- Kevin


Title: Plutino 2007JH43 vs. Pluto
Post by frankuitaalst on 02/28/09 at 09:15:30

Curious as always I've run a simulation of another plutino : 2007JH43.
Simulation was run in rotating frame to Neptune with a frame period of 3 times Neptunes obital period , just as in the above simulation of Orcus .
2007JH43 in red , Pluto in grey . Just as above the sim covers 40.000 y
The Plutinos orbit is amazing as it seems to morph its orbit .
This is due to the fact its nearly circular orbit is also  librating ...

Title: Re: Plutino 2007JH43 vs. Pluto
Post by kheider on 02/28/09 at 10:31:44


frankuitaalst wrote:
Curious as always I've run a simulation of another plutino : 2007JH43.
Simulation was run in rotating frame to Neptune with a frame period of 3 times Neptunes obital period , just as in the above simulation of Orcus .
2007JH43 in red , Pluto in grey . Just as above the sim covers 40.000 y
The Plutinos orbit is amazing as it seems to morph its orbit .
This is due to the fact its nearly circular orbit is also  librating ...


Wow. 2007 JH43 is an interesting object. :)

JPL (plutino): http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=2007JH43
MPEC 2009-A63 (2:3): http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/mpec/K09/K09A63.html
Buie (SCATNEAR): http://www.boulder.swri.edu/~buie/kbo/astrom/07JH43.html

It is a good thing this object still has only a provisional designation. :) It has been observed 29 times over 5 oppositions with a quality code of 3.  With an absolute magnitude of 4.7, this object crudely estimated (assumed albedo 0.09) should be ~500km in diameter.  Place your bets? Plutoid Plutino?
-- Kevin

Title: Re: Plutino 2007JH43 vs. Pluto
Post by kheider on 02/28/09 at 15:00:54

I created a page for Plutino 2007 JH43:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_JH43

How does (119951) 2002 KX14 compare?  Does Neptune cause a wobble in it?
Buie lists it as a cubewano: http://www.boulder.swri.edu/~buie/kbo/astrom/119951.html

-- Kevin

Title: Re: Plutino 2007JH43 vs. Pluto
Post by frankuitaalst on 02/28/09 at 15:16:33


kheider wrote:
I created a page for Plutino 2007 JH43:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_JH43
How does (119951) 2002 KX14 compare?  Does Neptune cause a wobble in it?
Buie lists it as a cubewano: http://www.boulder.swri.edu/~buie/kbo/astrom/119951.html

-- Kevin

Thanks for the link . TNO's are really great to simulate . I'll let you know tomorrow about 2002KX14 if I've some time .
In the meantime I've run 1995DA2 , a known 4:3 resonator with Neptune . Cute orbit . Looks like the rotor of a three lobe pump

Title: 2002 KX14
Post by frankuitaalst on 03/01/09 at 00:43:56

2002 KX14 may be called a Plutino in wiki , but integration shows it isn't really in resonance with Neptune as Pluto is .
Hereunder the evolution of the SMA of both bodies .

Title: 1995DA2 in resonance with Neptune
Post by frankuitaalst on 03/01/09 at 01:54:39

As mentionned yesterday I've run the 1995DA2 asteroid , known to be in 4:3 resonance with Neptune .
Each frame covers 4 orbits of Neptune . Due to the 4:3 resonance the orbit of 1995DA2 shows three lobes .
In the meantime we get familiar with the librating features of such orbits in rotating frame.

Title: Re: 1995DA2 in resonance with Neptune
Post by kheider on 03/01/09 at 12:39:03

I have updated Wiki Resonant trans-Neptunian objects:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(119951)_2002_KX14  (cut and paste link; not listed as plutino, likely cubewano)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(15836)_1995_DA2  (cut and paste link; 3:4 resonance)
-- Kevin

Title: (84522) 2002 TC302
Post by kheider on 03/04/09 at 22:43:39

I would love to see (84522) 2002 TC302 (2:5 resonance; H=3.8 "Big Dwarf Planet Candidate")
Buie: http://www.boulder.swri.edu/~buie/kbo/astrom/84522.html
JPL: http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=84522

-- Kevin

Title: Re: Tony, you're on Wikipedia :-)
Post by Tony on 03/05/09 at 01:12:50

Here's a still image

http://orbitsimulator.com/gravity/images/2003TC302.GIF

Title: 2002TC02
Post by frankuitaalst on 03/05/09 at 08:36:07

Simulations seem to match  :)
In rotating frame the librating period is about 46000y .
Pluto is represented in grey .

Title: Re: 2002TC302
Post by kheider on 03/05/09 at 19:45:24


frankuitaalst wrote:
Simulations seem to match  :)
In rotating frame the librating period is about 46000y .
Pluto is represented in grey .

Thank you Tony and Frank.

Neptune molesting dwarves...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_TC302

Can we do one for Twotino (119979) 2002 WC19?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_WC19
--Kevin

Title: 2002TC302
Post by frankuitaalst on 03/06/09 at 10:20:40

Bingo again for the resonance ...
Kevin , I saw you posted the animated version for this asteroid .
Is it however possible to provide a link to the still image Tony posted , as I think this image gives an overal picture of the motion ?
I'll post the 2:1 resonance of 2002WC19 soon ...Bingo again .

Title: 2002WC19
Post by frankuitaalst on 03/06/09 at 10:22:42

2002WC19 indeed has a nice 2:1 resonance to Neptune .
The libration period is about 20000 years as can be seen in the animation .

Title: 2060 Chiron
Post by kheider on 03/16/09 at 21:06:35

Any signs that 2060 Chiron has a temporary libration around the 3:5 resonance with Saturn, but with say a long-term fluctuation that tends to bring the motion more under the influence of of the stronger 2:3 resonance after about 6,000 years?
-- Kevin

Title: Re: 2060 Chiron
Post by frankuitaalst on 03/17/09 at 10:04:22


kheider wrote:
Any signs that 2060 Chiron has a temporary libration around the 3:5 resonance with Saturn, but with say a long-term fluctuation that tends to bring the motion more under the influence of of the stronger 2:3 resonance after about 6,000 years?
-- Kevin

Nice to find this one .
Chiron has an identity crisis I think  :)
Here's the plot of its orbital period vs Saturns one . It's ornit varies heavily , peaking at 10.000y and then it stabilises into some kind of 2:1 resonance with Saturn.
I'll post an animation of the latter part .

Title: Re: Tony, you're on Wikipedia :-)
Post by frankuitaalst on 03/17/09 at 10:34:04

Here's the animation of Chiron , starting at 8.000y and running to 20.000y in rotating frame with Saturn. Jupiter is in blue .
After 2000 years of Rock 'n roll it enters in a quasi stable orbit in a 2:1 resonance with Saturn ; probably due to a close encounter with Saturn or maybe even with Uranus .
I'm not sure how it behaves after 20.000 years , but this is the first time a see a body enter into resonance that way !  

Title: Re: Tony, you're on Wikipedia :-)
Post by kheider on 03/18/09 at 10:44:42

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2060_Chiron

Thanks for the animation Frank.  I watered down the wording to prevent [OR] (Original Research) concerns.  Besides the resonance would only be temporary.

-- Kevin

Title: "Dwarf Planet Candidate" 38628 Huya
Post by kheider on 03/23/09 at 08:15:39

"Dwarf Planet Candidate" and "Plutino", 38628 Huya, is currently closer to the Sun than Neptune's orbit.  Can we plot a 20,000 year chart showing the perihelion (q) distance for Neptune, Pluto, and Huya?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38628_Huya

-- Kevin

Title: Re: Tony, you're on Wikipedia :-)
Post by frankuitaalst on 03/23/09 at 11:36:16

I'll see what I can do  :)
In the meantime a picture in rotating frame to Neptune for 20.000y .
Pluto in grey , Huya in red .

Title: Re: Tony, you're on Wikipedia :-)
Post by frankuitaalst on 03/23/09 at 12:03:59

Here's the variation of distance to sol . I've reduced the timescale to some thousands years as the graph doesn't change much . It's nice to see how Pluto and Huya seem toreach closest distance to Sol more or less at the same moment .

Title: Plutino (15875) 1996 TP66
Post by kheider on 03/23/09 at 15:32:17

Thank you Frank;

How about plutino (15875) 1996 TP66 that is currently well inside the orbit of Neptune @ 27 AU?  How does its rotating frame and/or distance plot look?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(15875)_1996_TP66  (need to cut and paste)

-- Kevin

Title: 1996TP66
Post by frankuitaalst on 03/25/09 at 15:00:21

I think we should demote Pluto as a minor planet  :) when we see the orbit of 1996TP66 ...
In rotating frame to Neptune over 20.000y 1996TP66 shows this smooth orbit (in red ) . Pluto is shown in grey as a reference .

Title: 1996TP66
Post by frankuitaalst on 03/26/09 at 01:24:23

Here's the plot of the distance to Sol .

Title: (120216) 2004 EW95 comes to perihelion in 2018
Post by kheider on 03/26/09 at 04:46:12

Thanks Frank;

I have added your info to the article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(15875)_1996_TP66 (need to cut and paste)

I would love to see one more, (120216) 2004 EW95 that will come to perihelion in 2018 @26.95AU...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(120216)_2004_EW95 (need to cut and paste)

-- Kevin

Title: 2004 EW95
Post by frankuitaalst on 03/26/09 at 12:22:56

Its quite possible 2004EW95 will come at perihelion in 2018 .
In rotating frame to Neptune over 30000 years it looks like this ...

Title: Plutinos
Post by frankuitaalst on 03/26/09 at 13:39:18

In order to attempt to visualise the orbits of the three Plutinos above ( Huya, 1996T66 and 2004EW95 ) referenced to Pluto I made this rather unusual  animation herunder .
The animation shows the orbits of the three bodies in rotating frame with Pluto .
Pluto is he grey line at 6 'o clock . Neptunes orbit appears as the half circle in grey .
Due to the high eccentricity of Plutos orbit the orbit of Neptune sometimes seems to recede in this representation .
Animation was run for 19500 y , and has 79 frames each covering 247.2 years being Plutos orbital period.    

Title: Pluto's family portrait
Post by frankuitaalst on 03/27/09 at 10:49:34

I've made a selection of the known Plutinos , orbiting just as Pluto in a 2:3 resonance with Neptune :
Hereunder are represented
2002VX130, Orcus, Ixion , 2007JH43, Huya, 1999TC36, 1996TP66, 2005TV189 and 2004EW953
in a rotating frame with Pluto .
Animation was run for 195700 years . Each frame covers 1.5 * 164.8 years .
Neptune itself is not represented ( made invisible ) .  Pluto is the white line at 6 'o clock .
While most Plutinos are synchronised with Plutos libration this is not the case for all of them .

Title: 2004 EW95 Distance to Sun
Post by frankuitaalst on 03/28/09 at 04:20:58

As requested : the distance plot of 2004EW95 to sol .

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